Adventures in Nuclear Risk Reduction - Georgia Pt 1

[00:00:00] As we realized afterwards, on the summit, one before last, Georgian government took

[00:00:12] responsibility to be free from nuclear fuel.

[00:00:16] So it was a political decision, but we were not told.

[00:00:20] Simply we received a request from the American side if we are ready to part with it.

[00:00:31] Welcome to My Nuclear Life. I'm Shelley Lecher.

[00:00:36] There have been a few developments behind the scenes here at My Nuclear Life and I am finally able to share them with you. We have partnered with the Stanley Center for Peace and Security

[00:00:41] to bring you a couple of really exciting and different podcast episodes. The first is a set of conversation with Georgian scientists which will span two episodes,

[00:00:51] this being the first. I know most of my listeners are Americans and we are notoriously bad at

[00:00:56] geography. And when I say Georgia, many of you think the state, not the country. So let me provide

[00:01:02] a brief background. Georgia is a country which straddles

[00:01:05] Europe and Asia and is part of a region called the Caucasus. Georgia borders include the Black Sea,

[00:01:12] Armenia, and Russia. As such, it was part of the former Soviet Union gaining independence in 1991.

[00:01:19] The capital is Tbilisi where I attended a workshop on nuclear storytelling sponsored by the Stanley Center

[00:01:26] and met with the Georgian scientists

[00:01:28] featured in these episodes.

[00:01:30] I will be introducing them as the episodes progress.

[00:01:33] The first person featured is Shirena Lurka-Ponitse.

[00:01:37] She is not a scientist, but was our contact in Georgia

[00:01:40] and was able to put the organizers in touch

[00:01:43] with all the scientists.

[00:01:44] She wrote a book about the Georgia nuclear legacy, which I will link on the episode webpage.

[00:01:55] How did you get involved in the storytelling project, and what is your interest in telling Georgian stories?

[00:02:01] In May, I was attending the International Nuclear Materials Management Conference in Vienna.

[00:02:08] I met Nick there and he shared this project with me and he also said that we are looking for a place

[00:02:17] for the next storytellers workshop. So it said that you can come to Georgia, to Tbilisi.

[00:02:24] So it said that you can come to Georgia, to Tbilisi. That was how we met and then Nick took this idea to Stanley and then we got connected and we were so excited.

[00:02:34] I couldn't believe that this meeting and once talking about that could result in workshop in Tbilisi.

[00:02:43] results in workshop in Tbilisi.

[00:02:47] This project is Adventures in Nuclear Risk Reduction, organized by a group of practitioners from around the world

[00:02:50] and sponsored by the Stanley Center for Peace and Security.

[00:02:54] The workshop took place in Tbilisi at the end of October, 2023,

[00:03:00] where these podcasts were recorded.

[00:03:02] Nick Roth from the Nuclear Threat Initiative,

[00:03:05] who Sirona mentioned, was one of the organizers.

[00:03:09] Why do you think it's important for the community

[00:03:12] to hear from the Georgian nuclear community?

[00:03:15] That was this occasion when we shared.

[00:03:18] He shared with me about that.

[00:03:20] And so I was thinking that that's a great opportunity.

[00:03:23] That's this small scientific community we have in Georgia.

[00:03:27] They were heard and they were listened.

[00:03:29] And it's a great opportunity for our scientists to tell their stories

[00:03:35] and actually to bring their personalities, their personal achievements, failures,

[00:03:42] and also explain context of the country, which is in transition,

[00:03:47] which underwent so many challenges and hardships.

[00:03:51] So I thought that that's wonderful actually to listen to other stories and also to search for Georgian stories.

[00:03:59] And actually we already in our organization, we have done something in that direction. In 2013-2012, 13-14, we were working on George's Nuclear History book, and that was a very

[00:04:13] interesting path when we have contacted those people.

[00:04:17] They contributed to the book a lot, and we also recorded other stories from those who

[00:04:24] were not alive now,

[00:04:25] these old scientists, and we have these videos, of course, with that.

[00:04:30] So I already knew the flavor and taste of doing these things.

[00:04:34] And I'm personally, and of course my colleagues and my friends in the organization,

[00:04:38] we all shared the same approach to that.

[00:04:41] But I can tell that I'm a person who loves stories. I believe in

[00:04:47] stories and humans and I also understand that those stories, even regarding the

[00:04:53] same subject, could be different because there is this subjective reality and

[00:04:58] actually this is something we all have to acknowledge and accept sometimes.

[00:05:05] That was kind of my motivation, interest, and of course interest working with other

[00:05:10] people who I thought and I felt that I have some kind of something in common and that

[00:05:18] was a great opportunity for me personally and for my organization and for my colleagues.

[00:05:24] So what is your organization? You mentioned your organization and your colleagues,

[00:05:28] so tell me a little bit about your organization.

[00:05:30] Yeah, so this is Civil Council on Defence and Security with this long and strange and scary name.

[00:05:36] But actually this is an NGO with my colleagues, those who are also founders like me.

[00:05:42] So we have been working together for almost,

[00:05:46] I think 23 years or even more.

[00:05:49] I was very young when I engaged in the field.

[00:05:53] In 2005, we established as the team of co-thinkers.

[00:05:58] We wanted to work together on security sector reform,

[00:06:02] transformation, oversight, security sector oversight issues.

[00:06:07] And in 2011, we decided to register this group as an NGO.

[00:06:14] And then that was interesting that

[00:06:16] Swedish Radiation Safety Authority,

[00:06:19] they have approached us and Lars van Dassen,

[00:06:22] he entrusted us, entrusted us this book on nuclear history,

[00:06:27] which the idea was born in our discussions,

[00:06:30] how to start working on these issues.

[00:06:33] Because I think that we were at that time,

[00:06:35] the first organization who was professionally interested

[00:06:38] in nuclear stuff, let's say, in security,

[00:06:42] in non-proliferation, and because that was not common at all.

[00:06:46] So, and we thought that to start with the history

[00:06:50] is so important.

[00:06:52] First of all, we have to get to know.

[00:06:54] And actually, I am an international nation specialist,

[00:06:57] but my colleagues, Tamar and Irakli,

[00:07:00] they are physicists and mathematicians.

[00:07:03] So for them, that was very just, and even Tamar, she has PhD in physics.

[00:07:08] So, but for me, they all were involved that time in this political analysis in NGOs,

[00:07:14] so no more practicing science.

[00:07:17] But for me, and for us, it was important to start to research,

[00:07:21] to start connecting people, science, academia with civil society,

[00:07:27] just bring this understanding of what civil society means

[00:07:31] in academia, and also somehow to connect with government

[00:07:35] because we think that this partnership can have great value.

[00:07:39] So, and actually, that was fascinating process,

[00:07:43] working with the scientists, trying to get new interviews

[00:07:49] to find out those scientists and witnesses

[00:07:53] who knew something.

[00:07:55] We were searching in libraries, in archives,

[00:07:58] especially for me, it was very interesting

[00:08:00] to read Communist Party archives

[00:08:03] because all these kind of reports about Scheta Reactor,

[00:08:08] we found in Communist Party archives.

[00:08:10] And there were reports like the scientists

[00:08:13] and local staff violating rules,

[00:08:15] or they were not changing clothes,

[00:08:18] they were not using properly with the laundry room,

[00:08:22] or they were not drinking enough milk because there were

[00:08:26] some internal procedures.

[00:08:29] They were also very interesting in the archive materials, budgets of the reactor, or for

[00:08:36] that time it's the period from 1958 to like 1968.

[00:08:43] So that period we have found.

[00:08:44] Very active period.

[00:08:45] So a very active period. And for me, it was interesting to observe how these rules working

[00:08:52] at reactor were introduced and then how they were applied, what kind of resistance there

[00:08:59] was. And then plus, we were getting more information from scientists about the research projects.

[00:09:06] We were looking for articles in Dead Times journals

[00:09:09] about the researches they were conducted.

[00:09:11] And then most interesting part of all this was

[00:09:15] that we decided to go to NATO and to search in NATO archives

[00:09:19] because one of the questions except the science history

[00:09:23] for us was whether nuclear weapons were or not

[00:09:26] on the territory of Georgia during the Soviet Union.

[00:09:29] Because so actually the book has like three parts.

[00:09:32] The first is a science history

[00:09:34] and nuclear reactor history in Tbilisi, in Tcheta.

[00:09:38] And another nuclear reactor was not reactor,

[00:09:41] but the Institute of Physics was in Sochume,

[00:09:43] which is now occupied. I mean

[00:09:45] it's breakaway region out of Georgian government control and the first Institute of Physics actually

[00:09:54] and technology was established in 1954 in Sochome and then in Jainty-Belissi and then there was

[00:10:02] decision in the framework of atomsoms for Peace to have nuclear

[00:10:06] reactor in Tbilisi, because there was already some experience and some practice and some

[00:10:12] knowledge because of that Sohomi reactor.

[00:10:14] By the way, the predecessor of Sohomi Institute of Physics and Technology was the project

[00:10:20] of nuclear bomb-preciation project when Bererya, that time, rather Soviet kind of

[00:10:27] law enforcement guy originally from Georgia, from that region of Georgia, they have kidnapped

[00:10:33] German scientists and they have opened two labs there in Soho.

[00:10:38] So those were weapons labs?

[00:10:40] Yes.

[00:10:40] I mean, they had kidnapped the German scientists.

[00:10:42] Yes.

[00:10:42] Those were the weapons labs in Jordan.

[00:10:44] Absolutely.

[00:10:44] Wow. Okay. labs. They had kidnapped the Germans. Yes, yes. Those were the weapons labs in Georgia. Absolutely, absolutely. Very famous German scientists were working there. Two labs were

[00:10:50] established and they were working on two different methods, actually. That experience

[00:10:56] was already in Georgia and that was, I think, kind of how we get to first institute and

[00:11:01] then as a police reactor. Another chapter was about military kind of aspects

[00:11:07] of nuclear history in Georgia.

[00:11:10] Oh wait, you didn't say,

[00:11:11] did you find nuclear weapons on Georgian territory?

[00:11:14] Actually, we couldn't write that.

[00:11:16] We had some evidence because even some people

[00:11:20] were, yes, they were because,

[00:11:22] but we could not find this direct kind of thread, but we assumed

[00:11:28] that there might be because there was infrastructure actually, Soviets at Soviet military bases,

[00:11:34] they were.

[00:11:35] So there was a lot of circumstantial evidence.

[00:11:39] Yeah.

[00:11:40] So, and that was in NATO archives, which were recently opened for public.

[00:11:45] We find so many other interesting stories.

[00:11:48] Actually, in that archives, there were NATO countries, spies, reports about Soviet military complex.

[00:11:59] Did you just go...

[00:12:01] We went there.

[00:12:02] As they call it down the rabbit hole, did you just like keep reading and reading and

[00:12:07] reading and reading?

[00:12:08] Yes, yes.

[00:12:09] Did they have to kick you out of the archives every day?

[00:12:10] Yes, something like that.

[00:12:11] Yes, that was great.

[00:12:13] Actually we also, we were reading there and also they gave us digital versions of the

[00:12:20] reports.

[00:12:21] Everything is reflected in the book, including the kind of tables or structures which were

[00:12:29] constructed by western spies about Soviet military complex and the structure who was

[00:12:38] responsible for what, in which agency, this nuclear weapons kind of industry, military part of the industry.

[00:12:46] So I mean with all these photos actually from 70s, 60s even made for dead time

[00:12:54] satellite images. We were so lucky to have all this. Of course there were a few

[00:13:00] times mentioning of Georgia in those not so so many times, but we have learned a lot about

[00:13:07] how the systems were working.

[00:13:10] And the last part of the book is about more than Georgia

[00:13:14] after the Soviet Union.

[00:13:15] So what happened?

[00:13:17] Actually all those stories which were told by our

[00:13:21] on orphan sources or other challenges,

[00:13:25] they are part of this last part of the book.

[00:13:28] So we started with that book, and then we decided,

[00:13:31] now we have a book, and we were very proud of that.

[00:13:35] Now we have to start working with journalists,

[00:13:38] with scientists, with political scientists,

[00:13:40] and to bring this knowledge into this knowledge,

[00:13:43] as cross-cutting knowledge actually to different institutions.

[00:13:47] So we several summer university schools for journalists, we always were organizing the

[00:13:53] study tours at Reactor, at Luger Lab, and we have also did some translations of manuals

[00:14:00] and textbooks for Georgian universities, of scientific aspects of nuclear,

[00:14:06] and also some political and military aspects.

[00:14:09] And we met with so many wonderful people,

[00:14:13] and I'm lucky to be part of that space.

[00:14:16] And the book is online, right?

[00:14:18] Yes, it is online.

[00:14:20] Great, I will make sure it's linked for our listeners.

[00:14:22] When approaching people to tell their stories,

[00:14:25] like coming to this workshop and telling their stories,

[00:14:27] they're telling stories that are gonna be consumed

[00:14:30] by the general public, especially telling them in English.

[00:14:34] Are there some people that are resistant

[00:14:36] to telling their stories that are going to be outside

[00:14:39] of Georgia and kind of being consumed by the US and the UK

[00:14:46] and maybe even heard by current Russians.

[00:14:47] Like is there a concern for some people?

[00:14:49] We had no that concern because the people with whom we were working, they were very

[00:14:56] open and they know us.

[00:14:58] The pro-bots, of course there was some problems because in Georgia's population is very polar, not population, but very polarized kind of environment and

[00:15:09] these politicians and former government people who are now in opposition and vice versa,

[00:15:15] they are very adversarial and even in our group actually we thought that

[00:15:21] would they tell stories together?

[00:15:24] Actually, we thought that would they tell stories together? These certain people, for instance,

[00:15:26] Petra, who is like, he's a kind of witness and himself

[00:15:31] participant and actor of 90s politics,

[00:15:34] and then Dato, who was very active politician

[00:15:37] and the diplomat in the Saqa Shrillist period

[00:15:40] after the Rose Revolution.

[00:15:42] They have some conflicting ideas.

[00:15:44] And actually, we were thinking a lot

[00:15:46] about this kind of setting the scene,

[00:15:48] that it's fine, that they...

[00:15:50] It was not easy, actually.

[00:15:52] And Nino, who is now a geo person

[00:15:56] and was minister for so many years.

[00:15:58] And yeah, so we were thinking a lot of things.

[00:16:01] And then we just decided, at least we have

[00:16:04] all these kind of challenges in

[00:16:06] mind, some risks maybe, we worked on that but we need that stories, we need Petre who knew

[00:16:12] Shevardnath so well and he was at the dawn of Georgia's independence. We need Dato who just

[00:16:19] declared the foundation for Lugar Center and he was just in the middle of these making decisions

[00:16:26] on this high political level.

[00:16:28] Being at least part of decisions, maybe not making himself, because that time was also

[00:16:33] very strange in Georgia.

[00:16:35] And the problem is that I was thinking that Georgians are not very, yeah, they are telling

[00:16:40] good stories, but when we were telling them that it should be your story, what you

[00:16:46] have felt, what you have experienced, that was very difficult for them to what it is

[00:16:50] and how to do that.

[00:16:52] I mean, we are quite, I mean, we're, yeah, so this culture is a little bit different

[00:16:59] in Georgia, so.

[00:17:01] How did it feel now that the event is over? How did it feel for a group of people to come from all over the world to hear

[00:17:09] Georgian stories?

[00:17:11] Yeah.

[00:17:12] And to show such appreciation for them when it was over.

[00:17:15] Yeah.

[00:17:15] For you, how did that feel?

[00:17:17] I'm very full and I'm very happy in a way.

[00:17:21] And I hope that our stories were connected to these people from across the world

[00:17:28] who came here. So I hope that they will have this feeling that it was not in vain, they have

[00:17:34] gained something. So I hope for that, at least we tried our best to make that connection and bonds.

[00:17:43] make that connection and bonds. Actually, it's not only stories.

[00:17:45] I think we also should talk about,

[00:17:48] it was so good to speak about the meaning

[00:17:51] and importance of stories,

[00:17:53] because sometimes we do things intuitively.

[00:17:56] So it just works like that.

[00:17:58] It just works that we like each other,

[00:18:00] we understand each other,

[00:18:02] but reflecting on importance of that is also important. And we,

[00:18:06] in this rush, we can't catch that so very meaning of these connections for the society,

[00:18:13] for science, for our own empowerment. That's why it's good to reflect on these things. And it

[00:18:19] makes you better, actually, when you speak about that, that this intuitive process comes from our

[00:18:25] education, family, you know how to behave, you know that you have to say hello,

[00:18:30] you have a handshake, or you have to say care about something, but why it is

[00:18:36] important and how it makes you better, or this is something which makes things

[00:18:43] alive and that's why the importance of this project

[00:18:47] is, yeah, for my perspective, I don't know.

[00:18:50] I am sure that the authors of this project

[00:18:53] were thinking quite the same, but for me,

[00:18:56] that's indicating and reflecting on importance of this stuff

[00:19:00] and empowering each other.

[00:19:02] Yeah, it's very important.

[00:19:04] When you approached people,

[00:19:06] sometimes was there immediate answer,

[00:19:08] I don't have anything interesting to say?

[00:19:10] Yeah, we started with, oh, I have nothing to say.

[00:19:13] Yeah, of course.

[00:19:14] Or like, why would someone want to hear about that?

[00:19:16] Yes.

[00:19:17] Or maybe I don't remember correctly,

[00:19:19] or I have to check.

[00:19:21] Yes, or maybe somebody won't like my story or criticize me.

[00:19:27] So people have this insecurities about their own story.

[00:19:31] Yeah, of course.

[00:19:33] And we had a lot of discussions and phone calls and meetings,

[00:19:37] and just to identify their stories and to strengthen them and just do it.

[00:19:43] It's good. It's a good story.

[00:19:45] And this is the story we need to hear.

[00:19:48] So yeah, of course.

[00:19:49] Have you heard from your colleagues

[00:19:50] about the way they felt after telling their stories?

[00:19:53] Or have you heard back from them

[00:19:55] if they felt more empowered after telling their stories?

[00:19:58] I think so, yeah, I think so.

[00:20:00] And I definitely want to organize something

[00:20:03] just to meet in our office

[00:20:04] and to have some

[00:20:05] kind of debriefing, definitely.

[00:20:07] But the feedbacks we were receiving during these three days were absolutely, they were

[00:20:13] also surprised kind of, of everything happening, all these stories coming out, how they were

[00:20:19] telling these stories, how they even discovering themselves in the stories which maybe they were not even

[00:20:26] relating to themselves. Yeah, so that was the process. Yeah, so and there is something else.

[00:20:35] I mean, I was telling to my students that things what we have now when they are so obvious,

[00:20:41] we're not so obvious for other generations. Yeah?

[00:20:45] Like things that every guy, so opening eyes.

[00:20:48] And this is all about very simple truths.

[00:20:52] But they were discovered by people, someone.

[00:20:55] And now we just forgot that they were discovered once.

[00:20:59] These kind of discoveries are great.

[00:21:01] So there are things you could never thought possible,

[00:21:04] but it's so simple on the other way.

[00:21:06] And what I find so interesting about a lot of these stories

[00:21:09] is that you think they're going in one direction, right?

[00:21:13] And then you ask certain questions

[00:21:14] and they turn out to be something different.

[00:21:16] Different, yes.

[00:21:17] So even the story you think you're telling

[00:21:19] is not the story you end up with.

[00:21:20] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:21:21] You see these people from different angles.

[00:21:24] So you see more

[00:21:27] potential in collaboration and for new ideas, a more trustful environment. So I think that's

[00:21:34] wonderful and we have to keep telling stories. There were so many amazing stories shared during the workshop.

[00:21:47] I couldn't possibly record them all.

[00:21:50] But I was able to sit down with a few of the Georgian scientists to ask them questions

[00:21:54] about what it was like to work in Georgia over the years and to share some of their

[00:21:58] non-proliferation stories.

[00:22:01] There are three.

[00:22:02] You're going to hear one of them today and two of them in the next episode.

[00:22:06] Meriam Chabasvili worked at Tbilisi State University as a mathematics teacher and is an expert in computer science.

[00:22:15] But that doesn't tell you everything. She managed to be involved in all things nuclear around the Institute of Physics

[00:22:22] and worked closely with the IAEA, the US, and

[00:22:25] EU member states.

[00:22:27] I get the impression she doesn't like staying still.

[00:22:29] See if you agree.

[00:22:36] I heard you're actually a mathematician.

[00:22:40] You have a PhD in math?

[00:22:41] No, I have no PhD at all.

[00:22:43] You have no PhD?

[00:22:44] No, I don't have. I have a Soviet system math? No, I have no PhD at all. You have no PhD? No, I don't have.

[00:22:45] I have a new etsoic system.

[00:22:47] It was different.

[00:22:48] We started for five years, and it was called Specialist.

[00:22:52] It is some analog of master, because I know.

[00:22:57] My department was called the Department of Applied

[00:23:02] Mathematics and Cybernetics.

[00:23:04] Cybernetics? Yes, cybernetics. Cybernetics?

[00:23:06] Yes, Cybernetics.

[00:23:07] Okay, okay.

[00:23:08] Georgia actually was first republic in Soviet Union

[00:23:11] where Cybernetics started to develop.

[00:23:14] We had very huge institute,

[00:23:16] scientific of Cybernetics.

[00:23:18] I haven't worked there.

[00:23:20] When I started to study,

[00:23:23] at the time it became clear that Cybernetics was not how to say material thing.

[00:23:28] And we more turned, or not we, but our education, it was a mathematical one,

[00:23:36] but with specializing into, you know, if you understand the discrete mathematics and everything which is needed for computer,

[00:23:44] theoretical thought of computer science to say.

[00:23:47] Of course we have some practical studies but it was time of mainframe computers.

[00:23:52] So what year is this?

[00:23:54] What year did you finish or kind of what period is this?

[00:23:57] 1971, 75.

[00:23:59] Okay.

[00:24:00] So you were at the beginning of computers.

[00:24:05] I was, and as I was for many years teaching computers and program languages,

[00:24:13] I became interested in computers, history of computers,

[00:24:18] and I said that I am a contemporary of it, and it was a very interesting history.

[00:24:24] So what was the first computer you owned?

[00:24:26] It was Soviet computers, I can't tell names, but it will tell you nothing.

[00:24:30] No, no, I want to know, yes.

[00:24:32] M220, you know, as it were mainframe, computer students didn't have much access, only we

[00:24:38] have once or twice a year kind of practice there.

[00:24:42] Before that we studied on the desk and writing programs.

[00:24:45] Just writing the programs?

[00:24:46] And just where I was teaching it myself again. So once or twice a year we have practice and

[00:24:53] this practice was simply first time that we were taught how to use magnetic tapes and

[00:25:00] magnetic not this disc but the big ones. And punch cards, of course.

[00:25:06] We even knew when there was some mistake on punch it,

[00:25:10] we knew somehow to put some little pieces of this inside

[00:25:14] and maybe not having to punch it anymore again

[00:25:19] to make some changes.

[00:25:20] So many interesting things happen there.

[00:25:22] So you could correct the errors in the punch cards by like.

[00:25:25] Not everything, but something, you know.

[00:25:27] So these punches are simply as we love the programmers

[00:25:30] to have zeros and ones.

[00:25:33] When you change one zero to one,

[00:25:35] sometimes you make great difference.

[00:25:37] If it was possible, we have done it.

[00:25:39] For some reason that reminded me,

[00:25:40] I don't know if you knit,

[00:25:42] but sometimes when you're knitting and you drop a stitch,

[00:25:45] sometimes you can pick it up,

[00:25:46] but sometimes you have to destroy everything.

[00:25:49] You know, there was even such jokes,

[00:25:51] Soviet programmers jokes, cars,

[00:25:54] to drop your pack of cars unnumbered.

[00:25:58] Oh.

[00:26:00] So how many cards would be in a program?

[00:26:04] It depended on program.

[00:26:06] But was it like hundreds?

[00:26:08] Hundreds, it was too big for us for students.

[00:26:10] Okay, okay.

[00:26:11] For us it was maybe 20, 30, maybe 40, because...

[00:26:14] Okay, but that's a lot of combinations if they're not numbered.

[00:26:18] So were you working at the physics institute?

[00:26:22] No, I was working for many years, almost 20,

[00:26:26] at the university was functioning.

[00:26:27] You know, Soviet Union is a very special country.

[00:26:30] There was not unemployment.

[00:26:32] So everybody to be employed,

[00:26:34] and as it was not real life to say,

[00:26:37] there were many scientific institutions.

[00:26:40] And one of them ours, for someone and something,

[00:26:44] it was good because ours what it was called Institute of Applied Mathematics and

[00:26:49] All the new Soviet computing techniques again mainframes. We were first in Georgia who used it and

[00:26:58] No, it was called scientific

[00:27:00] We were doing some software for computers to say, operational systems and some translators

[00:27:06] and compilators for programming languages.

[00:27:09] Again I speak for those who understand about what I'm speaking.

[00:27:12] So we were studying new programming languages and it was our life to say.

[00:27:18] Then I get married, I have children, I need some additional income and life was going

[00:27:23] bad so the union was dispersing to say and

[00:27:27] I found additional source of

[00:27:31] living. I was tutoring students for whom it was difficult to study programming languages.

[00:27:36] So you then became a programming teacher? Yes, yes, and I discovered that I have some

[00:27:42] talent for teaching. Ah.

[00:27:45] Yes, it was a little strange for me

[00:27:47] because I never dreamed to be teacher.

[00:27:50] No, teacher was not very prestigious profession

[00:27:53] at the time in Georgia.

[00:27:55] It is not now.

[00:27:56] No, but it is desperately needed to have good teachers.

[00:27:59] Yes, but I can say it was not some my,

[00:28:03] to say, naturally I had, it appeared.

[00:28:08] And for years I was teaching at home.

[00:28:11] Some students came, I tutored them, I helped them to make this special work they needed.

[00:28:18] And then again I moved to the university, I started teaching full-time.

[00:28:23] And I was teaching programming languages and also, you know, it was end of 90s and personal computers start to came and

[00:28:31] Somehow we managed I and my husband to buy personal computer for our self our own

[00:28:37] It was very rare at the time to have personal computer which you bought by your own money

[00:28:42] if anybody had it were was some project or something.

[00:28:45] It was our own. And for years, and it was a very hard time in Georgia, you know, end of 90s,

[00:28:52] where there was no work, no money, no job, nothing. We called it our milk howl. Because I have private

[00:29:00] people at home whom I was teaching computer skills.

[00:29:04] On your private computer?

[00:29:06] Yes, and Windows Ours was one of these very advanced PC

[00:29:11] at the time, and Windows and more than this Microsoft

[00:29:14] Systems and everything you can.

[00:29:16] I actually remember that time, and I remember the computer

[00:29:19] I had in 95, and I did not have Windows in 95.

[00:29:22] No, we bought it 96.

[00:29:24] No, it's not 90. Yes,

[00:29:26] 90, 99, 60, 96. So that is an advanced computer for the time. Even when I bought it and when

[00:29:33] we first brought it at home and we know this window system but at the university we have

[00:29:39] another pieces, you know, this black and white with another system. That's what I had. Yes.

[00:29:45] And I looked, actually I liked them, you know.

[00:29:47] I am in love with these very graphics.

[00:29:50] I prefer when I'm dealing with text pattern.

[00:29:53] I looked at it and I said, now is a good time for somebody to ask me to teach in Windows

[00:29:59] and Word for me to be obliged to study it.

[00:30:05] And next day somebody called me.

[00:30:07] Somebody she called me.

[00:30:09] So you know this at the time it was time when there was energy crisis and we have energy

[00:30:17] supply only several couples a day maybe two hours in the morning, four hours in the evening. So I put strictly that it's my time.

[00:30:27] Nobody comes inside when I have, because I have to have pupils.

[00:30:32] And so...

[00:30:33] And it was only for the computer?

[00:30:34] If there were pupils.

[00:30:35] If there were pupils.

[00:30:36] Yes.

[00:30:37] And so somehow it helped us, I want to say.

[00:30:40] So the story you shared in this workshop had to do with the reactor. And how we got there, yes.

[00:30:46] How did you get... So you're teaching students in your home on this very advanced computer,

[00:30:52] and how do you get then to the reactor?

[00:30:55] Yes, I will tell. My husband whom we have seen there, he was the whole...

[00:31:01] His time he worked at the Institute of Physics.

[00:31:03] Actually, I had many friends there besides

[00:31:05] him. He already started to work with his specialty is plasma physics and also he worked in computational

[00:31:14] physics who knew this computer as well. This non-proliferation project started in the 2002-3

[00:31:22] but it was not his field. He was not reactor guy.

[00:31:25] He had one friend, he worked there.

[00:31:27] He was very close friend and he was also close relative

[00:31:31] of his and he was reactor specialist.

[00:31:34] Theory of reactors was his specialty

[00:31:37] and he worked on the reactor.

[00:31:39] He was not to say practical shift or something,

[00:31:41] but he knew it.

[00:31:43] And at that time people who were the reactor,

[00:31:45] they started to participate in these projects.

[00:31:49] Zaza, he became interested in his said,

[00:31:51] and they were going, first, that group,

[00:31:54] they were invited to some workshops on this CITI mansion.

[00:31:58] It's called Commodity Identification Training.

[00:32:02] It's export control of dual use commodities

[00:32:04] for customs and border guard people.

[00:32:06] And somehow this American side who was funding,

[00:32:10] you understand everything, they were looking for people who

[00:32:14] could manage it.

[00:32:15] And they tried.

[00:32:16] So as we afterwards, we discovered they tried different

[00:32:20] groups.

[00:32:21] And one of the groups that tried at the Institute, as

[00:32:24] Institute has its reactor, at that time, many people were alive, who worked really, so there was

[00:32:29] knowledge of, to say, radiation, to say very primitively.

[00:32:35] And they tried that group, they invited, I remember it, to some such trial trainings.

[00:32:42] And one of them is Baku.

[00:32:44] He asked, please take me to, I am interested.

[00:32:46] He went, he got interested and somehow he was inserted into this group. It was 2003.

[00:32:54] In 2004 they actually started these trainings, first these American instructors made, they

[00:33:00] were only attending and then they took to them several presentations.

[00:33:06] It was some special course. These presentations were given. We translated it. I helped with it.

[00:33:13] And these trainings were made in Tbilisi and some were made in Batumi, Batumi is a seaside.

[00:33:20] It's main seaport of Georgia and so there are many such border and customs guys, and

[00:33:26] trainings were held there.

[00:33:27] It was summer and everybody likes to go to summer in Batumi, and I ask to go with them.

[00:33:33] No, it's, you know, as usual way.

[00:33:35] I went as a wife, to say.

[00:33:37] I was going to say, my husband's here for the same reason.

[00:33:39] He thought, well, it'd be nice to come to Tbilisi, so.

[00:33:42] Yes.

[00:33:43] I went as a wife, but there were other wives too say, but they went to the beach and I went to the training.

[00:33:51] That's not the idea.

[00:33:52] You go so that you can go have fun and go to the beach.

[00:33:55] I was interested.

[00:33:56] OK, I was interested.

[00:33:58] So you went and worked and got unpaid.

[00:34:00] No, no, I'm paid.

[00:34:01] I was simply attending and looking and then, you know, this, it was

[00:34:07] three-day training and these participants, students, they were given some allowance.

[00:34:14] You know, allowance of kind of, you know, how it's called, meals and incidentals.

[00:34:20] Oh, yes, yes.

[00:34:21] But actually, it's mine. They were paid to be sitting there.

[00:34:25] But as we all understand the background of it,

[00:34:28] they were not given this money the first day.

[00:34:31] Yes, because there was a threat that they would take

[00:34:34] this money and they will go away.

[00:34:36] So they got it on the last day.

[00:34:39] This money was handed them.

[00:34:41] And I offered this money, you know,

[00:34:42] this giving money, counting money is not,

[00:34:44] well, good thing actually, but as I'm a mathematician, I like counting. I said,

[00:34:49] I can do this job, as I had nothing to do. Oh, they were everybody was happy. And so

[00:34:54] I handed this money to them and they loved me.

[00:34:58] So every day were you handing out the money?

[00:35:00] Every day, yes.

[00:35:01] Every day in the middle of the day. And when when they saw they were happy when they saw me.

[00:35:07] This was 2004. The 2005 was the same story, one in Tbilisi, one in Batumi and one in a

[00:35:14] the mountain resort place. And I went there already and did they invite you to come this time? No,

[00:35:20] no, again I went as a wife. I went but when I was somewhere then I looked, I think, why?

[00:35:29] Maybe I will do it too.

[00:35:31] I said, and Zaza liked this idea and we asked one of the heads of the group.

[00:35:38] There were several, you know, at the time we didn't understand well what was difference

[00:35:43] because there were to say heads from because there were, to say, heads

[00:35:45] from Argonne, to say, scientific, and there were heads from DOE, such bureaucratic.

[00:35:52] But we can't see the difference very much to say at the time.

[00:35:56] So we asked both heads, and they were not happy.

[00:36:00] As we understood, they said that it's not approved to have a family there because of

[00:36:06] certain reasons.

[00:36:07] But then in Georgia, we don't change our names.

[00:36:11] When they heard that our names were different, oh, so there is no problem, they said.

[00:36:16] And again, we came, but I was thinking about being as an instructor of certain presentations.

[00:36:21] I looked, it was not, I know some physics to say,

[00:36:25] not as a physicist, but enough.

[00:36:27] When we came back and we had one session in Tbilisi,

[00:36:31] it was in the Border Guard Department.

[00:36:33] One day we came out on the midday

[00:36:36] and I helped to find a little restaurant

[00:36:39] where we had to have lunches for these listeners.

[00:36:42] No, you know, I have nothing to do.

[00:36:44] I offered my service to do. I offered

[00:36:45] my service to say. And once I went out of the room and somebody from this course of

[00:36:50] working there, somebody came to me, oh, good that I see you. He said, you know, there is

[00:36:56] a car standing in another proper place and please take care to be taken it away. And

[00:37:02] then I took my microphone. I came and came and said please owner of this car please

[00:37:06] take care and then I understood that I'm already starting to behave as a facilitator not as a wife

[00:37:13] so next year I already entered this program as an instructor with certain topics and doing and then

[00:37:21] you know when you do something it's general rule that they load on you more and more.

[00:37:28] Yes, more and more.

[00:37:30] And then I started to make correspondence.

[00:37:32] And then we have another project started, SLD project,

[00:37:36] the second line of defense.

[00:37:38] And for one moment we have to make negotiation

[00:37:41] with somebody in PNNL.

[00:37:44] It was very malicious accountant they had

[00:37:46] or some contracts officer who didn't want it

[00:37:49] to give us the money we asked for.

[00:37:52] And there were two men who were responsible for it.

[00:37:57] But I had to write letters for both of them.

[00:38:01] Did you get the money?

[00:38:02] Yes.

[00:38:03] Well, I have no doubt you got the money.

[00:38:05] It was a big money.

[00:38:07] No, this money we were prompted by somebody, but we would have never dared to ask such

[00:38:13] money, but we knew that it was possible.

[00:38:16] Why not?

[00:38:17] In 2006, the university grade changes were made, and I was, say fired because there was changes made some new

[00:38:27] management came and they wanted everybody new so I was left out and many

[00:38:34] not only I but many my colleagues they were very everywhere were offended and

[00:38:40] very hearty to say and Zaza no, you can come and work for us

[00:38:45] whole time at the institute.

[00:38:46] And what I will do with you,

[00:38:47] said, you know me, I am no physicist.

[00:38:50] You know, no problem.

[00:38:52] No problem, he said.

[00:38:53] I went there and he make a big announcement

[00:38:55] on the wall that everybody who wants to start

[00:38:57] computer skills of different level, please come.

[00:39:01] And everybody rushed.

[00:39:02] And we make several groups. And maybe for a year or so,

[00:39:08] I was teaching everybody, then we have advanced courses,

[00:39:11] then we have Excel courses after some time.

[00:39:14] So this was finished because everybody was educated.

[00:39:18] And the same time I went with these projects

[00:39:21] and said, you know, I'm happy that I was kicked

[00:39:24] because participating

[00:39:26] in this project means that I have to go for several weeks sometimes, especially by this

[00:39:32] SLD program out of town. We have training there. When I am teaching, I have my schedule.

[00:39:38] How I do it, I couldn't. Yes. And I would have done it. And now I am free to do. I have much more money.

[00:39:45] I have much interesting work.

[00:39:47] I am respected and thanked.

[00:39:49] So go to hell with all your university.

[00:39:53] So you didn't feel that way at the university?

[00:39:55] No, I haven't returned, though I was asked.

[00:40:00] So it was a good decision for me.

[00:40:02] And after that, I got involved very actively on all these projects as an instructor, as a translator, as a manual writer, as a manager and everything.

[00:40:12] And in 2012 at the time many activities were going and the institute received invitation to Korea to Seoul.

[00:40:25] It was nuclear summit there.

[00:40:27] Before that nuclear summit,

[00:40:29] it was called some conference of nuclear something

[00:40:32] for scientists.

[00:40:33] And Institute received invitation for one person.

[00:40:37] When such invitations come,

[00:40:39] it goes first to director and they will decide to go.

[00:40:43] And this other came and said, you know, there is such an invitation. And do will decide to go. And this other came and said you know that

[00:40:45] is such an invitation and do you want to go? You get to go?

[00:40:49] Because I said what a question I said. Of course!

[00:40:52] And who? And he said you know nobody wants to go because they are funding only flight

[00:41:00] there and back and two nights in the hotel nothing nothing else. No mills and no M, no

[00:41:06] L.O.S. Nothing. I said, I will go, never. It's my only chance in my life to go and see

[00:41:13] Korea. We went in many different places. No, it was at the time it was farthest. And there

[00:41:19] on this, how it was called, I didn't even remember some conference to say. The scientific summit or something. There was a Russian guy, one, several, and he came

[00:41:29] and he asked, he saw this, my page and there was name of the institute. And the institute

[00:41:35] name, it was quite a well-known name in Soviet Union among the physicists. He came, oh, he

[00:41:41] said a good name. I said, yes, of course, agree. And he said, do you know, I want to ask you something.

[00:41:46] What I said, I know that you have removed this fuel.

[00:41:51] I said, yes, we had.

[00:41:53] And can you tell me why Russians refuse to take it back?

[00:41:58] I said, do you from Russia ask me?

[00:42:01] Yeah, why would you know?

[00:42:02] I said, I tried for a long time, why can't?

[00:42:07] No, Soviet Union.

[00:42:09] It appeared that there was a guy who was involved

[00:42:12] in some non-proliferation issues.

[00:42:14] He had some funding from how it's

[00:42:17] MacArthur Foundation or MacCarty Foundation.

[00:42:20] Oh, MacCarty.

[00:42:21] MacCarty Foundation.

[00:42:22] He was editing some magazine.

[00:42:25] It was called the Nuclear Club.

[00:42:27] And he ordered to make a little paper on removal

[00:42:32] of this fuel for this magazine.

[00:42:34] It was in Russian.

[00:42:35] We make this paper.

[00:42:37] It make very compact and good.

[00:42:40] I have quite a long description of that.

[00:42:43] But we made for this paper and I received on a radium

[00:42:47] just exactly $500 which I paid for going to Korea.

[00:42:52] It worked out that.

[00:42:53] Yes, yes. So it paid back. So I was happy.

[00:42:57] This was story how I get involved and then there were different projects and very activity to say active activity doesn't

[00:43:06] sound good.

[00:43:07] Yes.

[00:43:08] Active activity.

[00:43:09] Yes.

[00:43:10] So what is the most memorable project from working in the...

[00:43:14] This project I was speaking about, the removal of this fuel, because I was in the center

[00:43:20] of it.

[00:43:21] Because we had projects.

[00:43:22] The CIT projects went for 10 years. This SLD project

[00:43:26] went for four years. We have some several others too. But that was most important for

[00:43:31] me because I was inside it, I was responsible for it, and everything was swirling around

[00:43:38] me.

[00:43:39] So my listeners didn't hear the story. So can you describe a little bit about what

[00:43:44] this project was that you were in charge of?

[00:43:46] Remove all of the fuel from this breather one.

[00:43:49] So this isn't the reactor from the institute?

[00:43:51] It was not from the reactor, it was a device itself.

[00:43:55] It is a little reactor.

[00:43:57] Because it has a neutron source, it has fuel, but it is called subcritical device.

[00:44:04] So what is it used for?

[00:44:05] It was used for, it's called the neutron activation analysis.

[00:44:10] Okay, so it's just scientific.

[00:44:12] Yes, first it was not for scientific but for more industrial use,

[00:44:17] because it's called express analysis when you analyze your something,

[00:44:21] samples of the some or something.

[00:44:24] But when it was returned to the institute, it was used for forensic.

[00:44:28] At that time there was no other place, everything was coming to our institute

[00:44:32] and it was mostly this for analyzing

[00:44:36] and forensic was done on that device.

[00:44:39] So why did you decide to get rid of it?

[00:44:42] First of all, it was old and it has some malfunction already,

[00:44:47] but somehow it was not very safe to use.

[00:44:50] Mostly it was at the time, it was stopped to say.

[00:44:54] Then as we realized afterwards, on the summit,

[00:45:00] one before last, Georgian government took responsibility to be free from nuclear fuel.

[00:45:08] So it was a political decision, but we were not told. Simply, we received a request from

[00:45:13] the American side if we are ready to part with it.

[00:45:17] So you were politely asked if you would like to get rid of it?

[00:45:20] Yes. Yes.

[00:45:20] And you thought it was a good idea?

[00:45:22] Because if we were refused, I don't know.

[00:45:26] Oh yeah, was it a polite invitation or did you think you didn't have a choice?

[00:45:29] No, no, it was polite invitation, but it was reasonable, you know.

[00:45:33] Institute has no money to repair it itself or change for something.

[00:45:37] We were offered compensation because in such projects always this giving institution is giving some conversation.

[00:45:46] For example, in Harkov, they have a very big

[00:45:49] such research reactor, they took a lot of,

[00:45:51] and they built them new research reactor, very big one.

[00:45:55] I know because manager of our project

[00:45:57] was all the time going there.

[00:45:59] It was one of the same project.

[00:46:00] So you didn't get a new reactor, you just got money?

[00:46:02] No, no.

[00:46:02] Simply, we should have chosen to have in that device

[00:46:07] a new fuel of a low enrichment.

[00:46:11] But you know, the situation is already so.

[00:46:13] We saw that importance of the Institute was going down

[00:46:17] because there were new forensic labs.

[00:46:20] There were not much sources to be analyzed,

[00:46:24] because most were already discovered and gathered.

[00:46:27] And only very rare findings and rare seizures should have been and there was special labs

[00:46:34] for it.

[00:46:35] And it was not to say reasonable to ask for because there was no need for it.

[00:46:40] So we asked for different alternative.

[00:46:43] It was to receive equipment for special forensic lab,

[00:46:47] not such device with some sources inside and such things and a fuel, but simply

[00:46:55] special and again it's for

[00:46:57] spectrometers. We were offered several and we had to choose

[00:47:02] staying into certain range of funding, what we liked.

[00:47:08] We even went, especially for this, to the states, we were to Oak Ridge and Savanna River National Labs,

[00:47:14] to see how it looks, and this forensic should have been for, again, nuclear sources.

[00:47:20] And there were several, I and Zaza went and also one very good expert from our institute.

[00:47:26] And there we had interesting to say decisions to made.

[00:47:30] And one decision was that to refuse to have nuclear forensic because we saw that buying equipment is not enough.

[00:47:39] Then as much money then you have to operate it for nuclear uses because the one time you put there some

[00:47:47] radiation nuclear source and it's already dirty and you need the great amount of money

[00:47:53] to keep it clean.

[00:47:55] And as there was no great need, we simply decided to stay for simply good, forensic

[00:48:01] analyzing equipment and we decided on certain things what our

[00:48:06] physicists needed and we bought it it needed six years to say because it went

[00:48:11] through IAA for certain reasons again not interesting to say why and three big

[00:48:18] devices were bought some kind of spectrometers names will tell you nothing

[00:48:23] because they tell nothing to me for example optical emission spectrometer, names will tell you nothing because they tell nothing to me.

[00:48:25] For example, optical, emission spectrometer or some, yes.

[00:48:31] Maybe someone knows what that is.

[00:48:33] Yes, yes.

[00:48:34] So you're placed on the project and what is your first step?

[00:48:36] You're a mathematician, you've been working in the lab, but you don't know,

[00:48:39] I mean, I wouldn't know where to start to take this thing apart.

[00:48:42] No, no, of course not. You are asking for that device.

[00:48:47] Yeah, like how did you know where to start to take it apart?

[00:48:50] Which one is how if you was removed, you are asking.

[00:48:53] How did you know?

[00:48:54] So how to take the breeder?

[00:48:55] Yes, we have engineers.

[00:48:58] The bad thing was that people who operated this reactor,

[00:49:02] they were not alive anymore.

[00:49:04] But there were albums, big,

[00:49:07] such dusty, big albums of such equipment always comes with descriptions and instructions and

[00:49:15] technical description and these albums with sketches, drawings, everything. And the group

[00:49:21] one engineer and two to say more technicians, they were sitting for two months.

[00:49:28] And they were sitting and looking and trying and so they knew before opening it what was inside.

[00:49:36] That was the very difficult thing to tell because they had to be sure. Yes. Yes, you didn't like

[00:49:42] to have surprise when though there was surprises.

[00:49:45] I was gonna say, what was the surprise when you opened it?

[00:49:47] Usually I am asked, then why was that epoxy there?

[00:49:51] And not the, you remember what was the story?

[00:49:54] They opened this device and there were no bolts.

[00:49:57] There was epoxy clay inside.

[00:50:00] Epoxy glue.

[00:50:01] Why?

[00:50:02] Why?

[00:50:03] Because explanation, it's my explanation. and I'm sure that all former Soviet citizens

[00:50:09] will agree with me, there was some drunk technician who didn't.

[00:50:14] Maybe he has no bolt, maybe he had to go somewhere for bolt, maybe he was simply lazy to screw

[00:50:21] it inside, it's very down.

[00:50:23] He took simply this glue and put it inside.

[00:50:27] And this is easiest and I think it's simplest

[00:50:29] and the truest explanation.

[00:50:31] All Soviets agree, nobody says, oh no, it can't be.

[00:50:35] My thought would have been when you get furniture

[00:50:38] to put together and you're missing something,

[00:50:40] I'm guessing like all this stuff came,

[00:50:42] there was no bolt and he said, well, I have to get this done.

[00:50:45] I have to fix it somehow.

[00:50:46] Ehh, epoxy will work and just does that.

[00:50:48] But I like the drunk story better.

[00:50:50] Yes, I wasn't there.

[00:50:52] So how do you take a reactor apart that's epoxy together?

[00:50:54] I mean, you can't just unscrew a bolt.

[00:50:57] So what did they do?

[00:50:58] No, no, no, it's simply bolt which was to say unsealed this construction.

[00:51:03] Inside there was source,

[00:51:06] and it was not simple source again,

[00:51:08] you know, in the reactor,

[00:51:09] and I don't understand what is your understanding

[00:51:12] of reactor operating.

[00:51:14] In real reactors, there is so-called assemblies,

[00:51:17] fuel assemblies, such rods and such set of rods

[00:51:22] which is put there and exchange.

[00:51:24] Here it was a different decision.

[00:51:27] It was some experimental thing.

[00:51:29] As I said, it was made only three times.

[00:51:32] Now this fuel was not in the roads.

[00:51:34] This fuel was dispersed into some paraffin.

[00:51:38] Okay, did they know this?

[00:51:39] Was this in the plans?

[00:51:41] Okay, okay.

[00:51:41] It was known, it was known.

[00:51:42] So that would have been really bad

[00:51:44] if they expected fuel rods and they got in and they saw like this giant candle basically because of this

[00:51:50] when they were speaking about this device, there were two kinds of numbering of to say

[00:51:56] fuel by certain sources, they told that it was two kilograms by others that it was 900 grams, because real fuel there was 900 grams,

[00:52:07] but with paraffin it was two kilograms.

[00:52:10] It was dispersed like raisins in the cake, to say.

[00:52:14] And so for this paraffin soap, to say,

[00:52:20] was made, designed and made special,

[00:52:24] it's called basket in reactor industry.

[00:52:26] Okay, yeah I'd never heard of that.

[00:52:28] Yes, I too, it was first time for me. It is called basket, it's a container,

[00:52:34] but when you take this fuel you put it in the basket and you seal it, seal it with IAA seal.

[00:52:49] IAA seal. And then this basket is put into another container. This basket was designed specially for this fuel. It was for one time use, one thing it couldn't have been used

[00:52:55] for anything else. There is a Czech enterprise, they have some storage and some reprocessing facility and everything. And they make containers for radioactive.

[00:53:09] Usually there are different kinds of containers.

[00:53:13] This load in this radiation industry is called the type ABC.

[00:53:18] C is the worst one, A is the easiest one.

[00:53:20] So this were called type A. This type A was the big blue container. So this

[00:53:27] packet was inserted into this big blue container. And then this big blue container was placed

[00:53:35] in an ISO container. No ISO container is everything. It's a big, you know, you have

[00:53:40] seen a big box. It's standard ISO. ISO is a standard institution.

[00:53:45] So how big is the big ISO box?

[00:53:49] Big van.

[00:53:50] A big van?

[00:53:51] No, you know, you have seen, maybe you can,

[00:53:54] you have seen some containers you have seen on the sea

[00:53:58] when the ships carry the standard.

[00:54:01] ISO, ISO is an institute of standards.

[00:54:04] Yes, okay. International Standards Organization, ISO. I got it, I got it of standards. Yes, okay.

[00:54:05] International standards organization.

[00:54:06] I got it.

[00:54:07] I got it.

[00:54:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:54:09] So it is not special.

[00:54:10] Yes, it's like a cargo container.

[00:54:11] Yes, and this ISO container was loaded into a cargo plane.

[00:54:15] It was a Russian cargo plane, special.

[00:54:18] There is such companies called Tenebra Volga or something like this.

[00:54:22] They fly everywhere in the world.

[00:54:25] And pick up radioactive powder.

[00:54:28] Yes, yes, we have money, yes. These baskets and these loot containers, when the contracts for them,

[00:54:34] though the contracts were not between us and them, but it was maybe a contract

[00:54:39] between this Russian organization, IAEA and this Czech, but they needed signing from us that we accepted.

[00:54:46] So I saw that contracts and I was terrified

[00:54:51] when I saw prices of the costs.

[00:54:54] What did they cost it?

[00:54:56] And then your signature's on there.

[00:54:58] So you're responsible.

[00:54:59] Not mine, not mine.

[00:55:00] Directors.

[00:55:00] Okay.

[00:55:01] I was gonna say, I wouldn't have taken responsibility for that.

[00:55:04] I was signing only some invoices.

[00:55:08] And so where does this basket go after it gets on the program?

[00:55:12] In Russian federations, they have many such enterprises.

[00:55:15] It was called Luch.

[00:55:16] Then I think they took this fuel from there and then usually in such cases when the fuel

[00:55:23] is fresh,

[00:55:26] the fresh is reprocessed, and then it's sold,

[00:55:28] sometimes to the United States, sometimes to others.

[00:55:31] It's turned to low-enriched, actually,

[00:55:34] because now this high-enriched isn't allowed in commercial.

[00:55:39] When it is not fresh and it's called spent,

[00:55:42] then it is sent.

[00:55:43] The Russia has a very big enterprise near

[00:55:46] Chelyabinsk. It's called the Mayak. Mayak is a lighthouse. And they have a big processing

[00:55:53] and such things go there. Where it has gone, I can say, it's Russia's business and even

[00:56:00] Russians very often don't know.

[00:56:02] So that's not your problem anymore.

[00:56:05] But the funniest thing was there was one guy who was

[00:56:08] to say playing on my nerves all the time.

[00:56:11] And the last day when we were sitting at the restaurant,

[00:56:14] this already plane went away.

[00:56:18] And we are sitting at the lounge

[00:56:20] and we were just in the Coppola place.

[00:56:23] And somebody called him.

[00:56:25] It's maybe some, it's five or six hours in the evening.

[00:56:30] And it went in the morning, six hours fly away.

[00:56:33] And he spoke to somebody and he said,

[00:56:36] and who made that sign, hazard signs?

[00:56:38] What a fool made them because the signs are not correct

[00:56:42] and the Russian customs refuses to let them in Russia.

[00:56:46] Oh no, who made the signs?

[00:56:48] I said, what a pity, I am so sorry.

[00:56:51] Of course they had to let it.

[00:56:54] Why?

[00:56:56] They couldn't send it back.

[00:56:58] You weren't going to accept it.

[00:56:59] Yes, it was gone from Georgia when we loaded.

[00:57:02] Our director signed, manager signed, Russian side signed,

[00:57:06] and it was not Georgian.

[00:57:08] So now it gets to Russia?

[00:57:10] If the customs forms are wrong.

[00:57:12] No, it's their problem.

[00:57:13] Too bad, it's Georgian.

[00:57:14] No, but I was happy.

[00:57:22] Thank you for listening,

[00:57:23] and thank you to the Stanley Center and the Georgian scientists.

[00:57:27] Please listen to the next episode for more stories.

[00:57:31] Visit our website, MyNuclearLife.com for links of interest in this episode, our email address,

[00:57:38] and information on how to access bonus material.

[00:57:41] Until next time, I'm Shelly Lesher and this has been My Nuclear Life.