Adventures in Nuclear Risk Reduction - Georgia Pt 2

[00:00:00] First of all what disappeared was the security of the institute, the reactor. So there was

[00:00:10] a police and police was absent, there was nobody who looked into the entrance to the

[00:00:16] reactor. So how it was solved, the colleagues working on the institute became bodyguards

[00:00:23] of the institute and the reactor also. To save it took a lot of time to convince government

[00:00:29] to then recreate this point is to send somebody to take responsibility because there was

[00:00:35] nobody thinking about.

[00:00:43] Welcome to my nuclear life, I'm Shelly Lesher. Today we have a second episode on Georgian

[00:00:48] scientists in collaboration with the Stanley Center for Peace and Security. In the last episode

[00:00:54] we heard from Sherona and Mariam, this episode we hear from two Georgian physicists. Georgie

[00:01:01] Jeperese is a professor of physics at Ilya University in Tbilisi and was elected a member

[00:01:08] of the Georgian Academy of Sciences in 2013. He is a theorist in condensed matter and worked

[00:01:14] at the Institute of Physics which is where many of his stories take place. Rava Shanica is a professor

[00:01:20] of physics at Tbilisi State University. He is a high energy physicist who worked in Dubna during

[00:01:26] the Soviet times and it surned after Georgia independence since then he has been collaborating

[00:01:32] in many high energy projects which span the globe. We're going to start with why Georgie

[00:01:38] doesn't like administrative roles and then Ravi picks up on the Soviet scientific roles.

[00:01:49] Did you purposely avoid it? No I don't like I'm a student. I'm a better administrator

[00:01:53] and I do not like to be when administration is connected with science too, still it's possible.

[00:02:00] But when there are more obligations and you have to deal with a big number of people,

[00:02:06] it's not my line. For me it's very important to have a freedom not to communicate with

[00:02:14] a big number of people. So when you have a freedom to communicate with subgroup of people

[00:02:21] you like to communicate, you maybe have to do obligations, but you choose with whom you

[00:02:29] are in contact. But when your position ablides you to communicate with everybody who knocks on

[00:02:36] your door, for me it's impossible so my system is not ready for this. I'm trying to avoid this

[00:02:43] so that is a way of my attitude towards it. You mentioned freedom and that's interesting

[00:02:49] going to pick up on that. What was the academic freedom like during the Soviet period when it comes

[00:02:55] to the science? Were you able to do any sort of science you wanted or was it a little bit more

[00:03:02] restrictive? Yeah it's a good question. It's a very good question because now it's quite common

[00:03:07] to say that Soviet Union was very, very bad. Of course it was bad from the political sense of

[00:03:12] view but from the point of view of science and science it was not that bad because when I was very

[00:03:18] young of course we know that there is concern, there is experiments, fundamental research there

[00:03:25] and it was kind of unacceptable for us, inaccessible because it was very difficult to imagine

[00:03:32] that you are in a certain experiment. But the experimented Soviet Union, you were doing experiments

[00:03:37] and nobody was telling you what to do there because I think they didn't know what we are doing

[00:03:42] and they cannot advise us so we are free. In what we were doing in local experiments we are quite

[00:03:48] free and we are dried by science because by our interest what to do and we get commands that you

[00:03:55] have to do this, this, this. If you are getting command we are getting for our advisors not from

[00:04:00] party members so science was in this sense my science I'm picking about particle physics I don't

[00:04:06] know what was in applied nuclear physics where they are developing some nuclear devices but in my

[00:04:12] science it was quite free but even in Dubna you feel the difference between the people who were

[00:04:18] working in certain experiments they considered themselves a level higher than we. Oh so even within

[00:04:24] the Georgian scientists or the Soviet Union there was a higher level. I will tell you why. So

[00:04:30] in Dubna there was a big computer which is mind-framed computer at that time was the control data

[00:04:36] the United States produced computer CDC 6,000 500 and all analysis was going on that computer

[00:04:43] and we have to punch cards and this was blah blah blah but at some period this tectronics

[00:04:48] displays where I was at Dubna but they were occupied only by the people who were doing certain

[00:04:53] experiments and nobody was allowed to sit at this tectronics work stations and do some work.

[00:04:59] These people were coming and sitting and the poor others we are punching cards and they were

[00:05:04] able to and yes Dubna has at that time two experiments at CERN or one big experiment this was Na4

[00:05:12] looking for this structure functions with the Mion beam and there's very important physicist

[00:05:18] what they are Igor Savin and he was working together with Carlo Rubia. And Carlo Rubia then

[00:05:24] became director of CERN Nobel Prize winner and they were doing experiment together with

[00:05:29] N4 and these people who were in Na4 they believe that they are more equal than

[00:05:35] than others so the scientists did. So there were more equal to the people in the West?

[00:05:40] Yeah you know this more equal is I'm joking this is from from any more farm of George Orwell

[00:05:47] I'm sorry is the reference. Some are more equal than others. I know a situation in other

[00:05:53] states it's also at that time as well and he was lucky or what I was. It's a freedom is a very

[00:06:01] special thing so we were lucky being good students as I understand to join good teams. What does

[00:06:10] it mean a team? So essentially you select a field which were interested and if you were enough

[00:06:17] lucky to reach this group then of course your freedom was determined by level of the professor

[00:06:24] or head of the department and it never touched you so it was sheltered by the big boss. Of course

[00:06:32] if you were not so successful in your career or the beginning of career and this process were not

[00:06:40] as let us say important or powerful in science to shelter they are collaborators quite often

[00:06:47] penetrates through and sometimes I knew examples it was not our case but when the administration

[00:06:54] we should do this and in many cases in many cases this was not a very lucky experience because

[00:07:00] they started to but sometimes there were alone people who were not enough to do then they

[00:07:05] were lost for science they did not get results and this I was witness of this not my personal

[00:07:12] way but around our colleagues when they were taken in some community given a chance maybe to

[00:07:19] do a good thing but were not successful and they were lost completely because they became treated

[00:07:25] as not successful people but in my personal case I mentioned London Institute this was very important

[00:07:32] so you were working here in Georgia but the key element was the Moscow institution which you are

[00:07:40] connected. Okay I'm sorry let me ask how were you connected exactly? It's a history for instance

[00:07:47] I understand me and reserve belong to the different routes how to reach Moscow okay the science was

[00:07:53] located in Moscow in Soviet Union no doubt about this one should not say maybe a few of these

[00:07:59] sciences some small amount was somewhere in San Peterburg maybe larger than some button so power

[00:08:08] money were located at Moscow and in Moscow I mean Dubin is also Moscow yes and there were big

[00:08:16] bosses there having fights against each other or working together for my personal story this was a

[00:08:26] director of our institute under Nikashvili whose name is now the San Drone Cushure Lee Institute of

[00:08:31] Physics was a nuclear reactor everything what has been done was done by this person okay who was

[00:08:37] very close to Kurchato to Kapitsa first of all to Kapitsa Institute so he was person his early years

[00:08:47] working from I think from 1940 or 1939 the whole 10 years in the Kapitsa Institute in Moscow

[00:08:56] so he was in a very good relations with people there particularly with Landova with Kapitsa and

[00:09:02] this boss then he was taken from there to Georgia and ordered to create the institute of physics

[00:09:11] here almost in the empty place so therefore he came here he started to create this institute

[00:09:18] of physics and took all these links which were mentioned and so when he was collecting young people

[00:09:25] somewhere from the university he was sending them to the centers to Moscow to be trained to study

[00:09:33] to study some particular techniques and so on so developing something here plus preparing people

[00:09:41] in Moscow in Kurchato for reactor for instance in Kapitsa Institute in low temperature and so on

[00:09:48] I could say that the result continues as similar school is was Bogolubov on his school

[00:09:54] and his traditions he will tell about this but all was coming so how did I appear there is a

[00:10:00] firm that all my bosses were connected with this school so essentially the training was something

[00:10:07] this is a rule when you do some good job and it's a reasonable deal not not excellent what reasonable

[00:10:15] you in theoretical physics particular you were sent to Moscow and you had to tell them results

[00:10:23] if you say they were acceptable they will not destroy it during the first five minutes of

[00:10:29] discussion usually it happened also so that was it is already done so the good case was that

[00:10:36] it is already done the bad case that it's wrong but even if it is already done by somebody it

[00:10:42] means that you are not supposed to be doing something interesting but it's not so important

[00:10:46] because it is already two days ago done by somebody but it was horrible I just have to say as a

[00:10:52] physicist like that sounds horrible it doesn't sound pleasant to be in that conversation

[00:10:57] it's very tough of course and it was a it was a very tough experience to tell them what have you done

[00:11:07] and be very careful for instance the way how this was a very big scientist essentially the one

[00:11:14] I experienced knows there was an excellent physicist Larkin was his name and only one Larkin Larkin

[00:11:21] so the situation was he was listening you during first three five minutes to understand what

[00:11:28] you are doing that he was looking that he is sleeping almost and during this slippy time he was

[00:11:36] solving your problem particular in a half an hour he has a solution then he waking up and asking

[00:11:43] some question if your answer on his answer coincide this was approved that you have done something

[00:11:49] I am not joking I'm not inventing everything this was really a way how it was so you were passing

[00:11:56] quite a substantial excess exams but this was a guarantee if they gave you okay fine and this

[00:12:04] was the you can accept your paper to piece my dread for good journal then you save here also

[00:12:11] your boss never your big boss or administration never touch you so essentially you are have a

[00:12:17] right to work but if you're not well not very much in this safe line then of course somebody

[00:12:24] would interfere or the order it's common it's normal and then you have to like go back to the

[00:12:29] village village here if you don't pass the test do you believe physics I was considered the center

[00:12:40] in all other cities and we are caught in the villages that's true there would know this is a

[00:12:46] reason why there was finally such a big delay in development of science because science was not

[00:12:53] developing equally or more equally all over the country it was centralized and then when the

[00:13:00] Soviet Union disappear and all these good guys from disappear in Moscow in three months they

[00:13:08] disappear in the US appear in the United States then the central disappear and the structure of

[00:13:15] science disappears oh because you were connected to Moscow and once Moscow is gone no that structure's

[00:13:21] gone yeah for for I think was a little bit different because I'm not a theoretician I am working

[00:13:29] in experimental physics and we are working big collaborations so our work was collaborative work

[00:13:36] and there was no one person to judge because it was data and you can say yeah it's our data this is

[00:13:41] what we get so it's not in principle theoretical work and they're a little bit different

[00:13:46] well I guess you were connected more to other people you had larger collaborations we were

[00:13:50] connected more to discern and to determine the beginning we are not in Soviet Union I wasn't

[00:13:56] connected that's right in Soviet Union when I was connected to his Dubna we have experiment in

[00:14:01] Serbukhov Serbukhov was the big accelerator there and we have collaboration from East

[00:14:06] European countries we have many from Bulgaria from Czechia from Poland I say if I remember correctly

[00:14:13] and all these guys were working in Dubna because Dubna is international institute and most of them

[00:14:18] were working in Dubna but some of them were working in Bulgaria or Czechia and they were coming

[00:14:23] during the collaboration meetings and usually these meetings were in Dubna or in Moscow because

[00:14:28] we have also few Moscow institutes in our collaboration and I agree with George that my Russian

[00:14:34] colleagues also were considering that there is only one place to do sciences of a union and this

[00:14:39] place was Moscow and when I tried to organize the computing center here to analyze the data some

[00:14:46] of them were saying it's no way you cannot do this but we have done it and some of my colleagues

[00:14:51] were coming from Dubna and they were astonished oh wow this is working yeah but very interesting

[00:14:58] was 90s because 90s for us it was a good period there was a terrible period for leaving but

[00:15:05] a very good period for science because if you have money to survive that then it was good why

[00:15:11] because now Soviet Union this iron curtain disappeared yes and Seren was open and everything was

[00:15:18] open and at that time Seren was developing this large Hadron collider and they need big collaboration

[00:15:25] they are looking for the partners and Russian scientists were very good really and they are operating

[00:15:30] accelerators operating very very good detectors so people from Seren came to Soviet Union to Dubna to

[00:15:37] Protfino and asking who was interested to join the collaboration and in principle this was a good time

[00:15:43] because they were taking everybody and this is how we got to this collaboration I was involved in

[00:15:49] the CMS, CMS is this compact me on spectrometer at one of the big experiments at LHC large Hadron

[00:15:57] collider and it was in 1992 so it was terrible really living here was terrible but the Seren was

[00:16:03] open and Seren was paying for us it was not paying the trip to Geneva but we are getting that time

[00:16:12] it was called Seren money and it was about 4,000 Swiss francs per month and it was quite enough

[00:16:18] to have a ticket from Moscow to Geneva that's the only place you can fly from Soviet Union at that time

[00:16:24] was Moscow because other airports were not international airports and unfortunately we have to also choose

[00:16:30] very cheap accommodation it's cheapest accommodation to bring some money home but this money was

[00:16:37] quite enough and this was excellent time let's say when you were able to do cutting edge science

[00:16:42] that everyone in the world wanted to do and you were at the forefront of that yes yes this was

[00:16:47] excellent time and we are working together with European colleagues but then Russians were also

[00:16:52] quick to realize that these guys are working and let's let's make kind of umbrella and in Dubna

[00:16:58] they made Russia Dubna member state collaboration for the CMS and because of this collaboration I went

[00:17:03] to Dubna second time because they told us that it's very difficult to work in to listen and come to

[00:17:08] Dubna at least we have electricity we have computers you can work electricity is always good when

[00:17:15] you need a run thing yes because here electricity was a problem also then I have colleagues in Dubna

[00:17:20] I have contact with my German colleagues and from Dubna they invited me and this is how I started

[00:17:26] my my western trip but this was his 90s I consider that there was my dynamic period for science for

[00:17:33] Soviet science because it was open so we were becoming the part of international science and

[00:17:39] we got a freedom and this was very important we don't have money because in principle at that time

[00:17:45] it was we don't understand that to do this experiment this is money of course you have to buy

[00:17:51] and collaborations means you have to put also money yes then at the beginning not only me this

[00:17:57] also scientists who were in the charge they were saying oh these westerns will give

[00:18:01] a money to do experiments but now I'm also in the western project and project which it's

[00:18:07] European project we are doing an ethno physics and we are building detector in the Mediterranean Sea

[00:18:13] and this is very expensive project but we have to pay common fund there and common fund is

[00:18:19] calculated as an authors publication and we are paying for one person because we don't have

[00:18:25] enough money to pay for others and this first person is me so in principle situation in Georgia

[00:18:30] in this sense is not that bad if you are paid for experiments you can work here because now you

[00:18:37] have excellent connectivity to the internet but we have problem of we have very few young students

[00:18:45] very very few and brighter students after master they have master degree or page this day they want

[00:18:52] to go to to the better places so Georgia I'd like to go back to you and I'd like to ask

[00:18:59] about the nuclear reactor why was it built what was the purpose oh why would a nuclear reactor be

[00:19:06] built in Georgia? The manufacturer of the institute who I mentioned already this and

[00:19:14] he was a famous experimentalist in low temperature physics he himself introduced all directions

[00:19:20] of physics in Georgia this was his task he had contributed a lot of in building of low temperature

[00:19:30] physics not only in Georgia but also in the heart of institute of low temperature physics because

[00:19:37] he was particularly in charge of organization of institutes which were transferred from Germany

[00:19:49] to Soviet Union after the war because there was a big big system of Soviet scientists as an

[00:19:56] American as well working in the East Germany territories and having taking some equipment from

[00:20:03] there or technology and knowledge and he was involved in this process so he was involved in creation

[00:20:12] high level European level scientific centers and it seems to me that he was asked by a government

[00:20:20] local government to do this in Georgia and I'm sure that it was an end of 40s so it was not a time

[00:20:29] when you ask about something from your government that you can say no I am occupied by something

[00:20:35] when he was a person who did this well and of course he has a opposition already here that it's

[00:20:43] not necessary to have a nuclear reactor tool complicate to serious has no support also in Moscow

[00:20:53] to cut off for instance personally was against to have built something in Georgia but then

[00:21:00] it works his ambitious so this was a tool to become a big boss on the Soviet scales

[00:21:06] so have a big institute big number of collaborators big abilities so he was rather ambitious guy

[00:21:14] the similar situation I should say was with Zalekhanian so there were two brothers Zalekhanians

[00:21:20] one was in Moscow another came to Armenia and creators of situation story similar

[00:21:26] okay so these strong talented guys are ordered to create something out of Moscow

[00:21:33] the sensual center so that that's a little surprising to me because I thought Moscow had to

[00:21:39] approve whatever it was you wanted to do after the war in I mean second world war or during the

[00:21:46] second world war Soviets union decided to make national academies so national academy of Georgia

[00:21:53] was opened nation academy of Armenia and I think I don't know it was simultaneously

[00:21:59] but if you have academy you have to have a group of institutes which is connected to academy

[00:22:05] and they try to to develop science in these regions and that's how they started they

[00:22:11] I think I was they started to take this as George said the best science were in Moscow and they

[00:22:17] started to take scientists were which they should learn transfer knowledge from Moscow this was

[00:22:22] the politics of a government okay and so at the time of course if you're gonna do the best science

[00:22:28] then you have to have a nuclear program they were selecting some very strong guys who were all

[00:22:33] ready there and asking so you have to go back to your homeland or home country and try to create

[00:22:42] a good school and it works out yes so what we're having in Armenia what we have in Georgia maybe

[00:22:47] in all these republics is done in that way the some young relatively young but already quite

[00:22:54] experienced they were around 40 at that time thank you for calling that young yeah no so that's

[00:23:01] that's it's not a young boy's completely but an experienced person a trustable person who at the same

[00:23:07] time understand and there is no space for them in Moscow this was also it was not necessary with

[00:23:14] national republics the Siberian center of academy of science was excellent example of this type of

[00:23:21] organization when a part of science has been taken from Moscow to novosibirsk for instance to

[00:23:28] Vladimir Stok to Ural and so on there and everywhere there were built and created an important

[00:23:36] research center so this was a story money was coming from Moscow support was coming from Moscow it

[00:23:42] was not local activity this is important just to say because it was a source of some

[00:23:50] not a competition but dislike between science which is financed by local academy and part of

[00:23:59] the academy science mostly it was a physics which was in main part supported and financed from

[00:24:08] Moscow so this local academy institutions were not so rich and there was a jealousy towards

[00:24:17] instead of physics and so on but it was done especially after the war to distribute science

[00:24:25] over the country I think that this was not only just a good will but also understanding that

[00:24:35] when the war started when Germans reached Moscow the government it became clear that if they

[00:24:42] occupy Moscow they almost everything what is in this country because everything was there

[00:24:50] and so after the war and they understand that one has to distribute all over the country

[00:24:56] and that that was politics and this institute and the nuclear reactor was created a part of

[00:25:03] this politics but as on the other side what is a problem or turns out to be a problem that first

[00:25:13] as it was a part of politics it was not completely and fully calculated and understood there were

[00:25:21] on a way some mistakes or not appropriate actions to do it properly and on the other hand then at

[00:25:30] some stage they became tired by this institution which was not very productive and in 70s already

[00:25:36] this came to a decay so that was the clear there was a support when the crisis of Soviet science started

[00:25:44] which is a 60s essential of 70s from my point of view real problems appear already

[00:25:50] marginally than 90s then when they observed these problems they lost interest in support of

[00:25:56] provincial sciences and then it gave us some decay here which finally entered with this dissolution

[00:26:03] of some institute the disappearance of some institute so was the reactor always built as a research

[00:26:10] reactor only only but it was unique that was a key element what was the main idea of

[00:26:16] or that's what I wanted to do as an underliek Ashwil he was expert in low temperature physics

[00:26:22] so he managed and it was extremely expensive story to have this channels which were called by

[00:26:31] the first stage by liquid nitrogen and then already by liquid helium so they were producing a

[00:26:38] huge amount of helium which was circulating inside the reactor's part and putting samples

[00:26:46] already it will irradiate it at the temperature of fuel kelvin so what's the benefit of that

[00:26:52] the because it was unnecessary they were checking semiconductor devices which have been

[00:26:58] used in the cosmic apparel so it was a conditions which are in the cosmos in rockets which was

[00:27:05] sold to the that this electronics would work how to work under the radiation which is present

[00:27:11] there and very low temperatures so that was already in the 40s that he was doing that back your

[00:27:17] partner was that in the 1940s like as soon as the reactor is not of 40 it's a 60 oh okay our reactor

[00:27:23] it's a 60 it's a 60 okay so the reactor was built in the 59 okay 60 it's a time when the

[00:27:31] cosmos flight started the military flights to cosmos started okay and militarists were very

[00:27:37] much interested in safety of their electronics during the flight in space how long it works what

[00:27:46] doesn't happen so they were ready to pay for so-called low temperature radiational physics and this

[00:27:53] was a name of this institute and it was what has been done there were irradiation in a very special

[00:28:02] conditions of very low temperature that's just brilliant having the reactor built that way

[00:28:07] with the liquid helium and the liquid nitrogen for that first time it was built in a standard way

[00:28:12] but then they add some particular line for this experiment yeah I had never heard of that before

[00:28:19] this was a unique yes yes that's true material science research was one of the priorities

[00:28:25] in the institute essentially this was a census was a unique institution it was only possible to

[00:28:33] do here the problem was it was not enough powerful to give any amount of radiation essentially

[00:28:41] which could be they were trying to increase the power of station and so on but as a tool to

[00:28:48] check low temperature material science radiation physics it was extraordinary special institution

[00:28:55] so did you ever work in the reactor no I never worked at reactor I was working always

[00:29:00] accelerators and in principle we benefited from this called war oh you know that okay it's

[00:29:07] so explain why you benefit why because there was a big competition between Soviet Union and

[00:29:12] United States and West and when they were building accelerator for example for some energy the

[00:29:18] Soviet Union was trying to build better and bigger and this competition was last accelerator for

[00:29:24] this competition is accelerating servo hop and after then and maybe I don't know why but it was not

[00:29:30] possible to catch the west because they built much better and strong accelerator but at some

[00:29:36] period this this competition was good for scientists because Soviet Union was always tried to not

[00:29:42] be behind behind the west because it was quite why georgia this is a very small country has so many

[00:29:48] particle physicists and why we have the high energy physics institute this is the same story as

[00:29:53] george told you because in principle this particle physics also started in institute of physics

[00:29:58] because it was a first institute in georgia and as I know when this in cosmic ray new particles were

[00:30:04] found and there was strong discoveries of new particles coming from cosmos and Soviet Union also

[00:30:11] decided to have this type of research as I know I read in some books that the Soviet Union announced

[00:30:18] that it will give money for building this cosmic ray station to the group who will show that they

[00:30:23] can do it better than others and this group was georgian group group in physics institute this group

[00:30:30] was led by George Chikovani he invented a detector which he got the learning prize for this this was

[00:30:36] the highest prize in Soviet Union this was electronic detector for finding tracks of particles which

[00:30:42] you are coming this in Russia we called it steam or chamber and other in English I don't know but

[00:30:48] Chikovani was really world-known scientists and we young students they we know that we have this

[00:30:54] guy with George Chikovani and rations gave a lot of money to georgians to build to physics institute

[00:31:01] in principle to build a cosmic ray station on the mountains of Schatzhara it's in Bakuriani this

[00:31:08] was very good center here by Turkish border and they developed special magnet for this with very

[00:31:17] high field then it was very difficult to imagine this was a huge magnet to bring this magnet on

[00:31:22] the top of the mountain and then Chikovani started experiment there and so georgia was quite known

[00:31:28] for this unfortunately he died very early Chikovani but this night he was not very good for this guy

[00:31:35] that mountain because this has a lot of copper and some guys just good copper good yeah this

[00:31:41] copper was taken and of course well it doesn't the magnet need be cooled no it was not superconducting

[00:31:47] magnets okay so it was large magnet very large magnet with a very large volume inside to put the

[00:31:52] chambers of Chikovani was making and so was it was it copper coils yes and it was a copper coil

[00:31:59] people would come and steal the copper and when Soviet Union was yeah and was a terrible situation

[00:32:05] here and people were trying to find money somewhere it was stolen yeah it was stolen and of course

[00:32:11] this center disappeared after that I visited this center 10 years ago with mananas vanids and

[00:32:18] even building is destroyed unfortunately for in year and one they also have cosmic ray center

[00:32:24] in mount aragats and this mount aragats center is still working oh so they still have their copper

[00:32:32] I don't know if what they are doing there but I know that this mount aragats is still working

[00:32:37] but our center disappeared yeah this is an online of our discussion about difference between georgia's

[00:32:47] there's a much better place than we so with the breakup of the Soviet Union georgia now suddenly

[00:32:54] becomes independent pretty much overnight right did you see this coming as scientist and you're

[00:32:59] kind of more in tune with the world right because you have this collaboration in dubna you kind of

[00:33:04] see a little bit more than the normal person did you kind of see this coming or like what was your

[00:33:11] feelings like when when this happens yeah that's very difficult question okay we were not we were I'm

[00:33:18] not we don't have to we don't have to go there we were not ready for this yeah clearly me

[00:33:26] I could say even more openly I personally was following in detail what was going on in Moscow

[00:33:34] so my sympathies or my expectations were hope was that of course this garbage of

[00:33:42] politics will change the country and the Soviet Union remain as so big I was not expecting

[00:33:50] this solution of this can personally me what I wanted to see here something which will be

[00:33:56] transfer the Soviet Union civilized western type country it was my experience of my personal knowledge

[00:34:04] of real situation because I was not very much involved in in local things so I had no deep

[00:34:12] understanding of how the people can feel themselves and what they want to see for me personally

[00:34:18] I was absolutely not ready for the solution of Soviet Union of course I was not unhappy or something

[00:34:25] like this but I was not ready it was something which happened like snow so you understand

[00:34:32] this our source of personal stories so maybe if you ask somebody somebody no absolutely and that's

[00:34:37] why that's why I ask yeah we can absolutely cut no no question it's a very very nice question

[00:34:44] and I agree with George I never believed the Soviet Union was going to disappear it was very

[00:34:49] very difficult to believe that this huge country will at some moment disappear but nevertheless

[00:34:55] we always I don't know George maybe agree with me we never considered ourselves as Soviets we always

[00:35:01] considered ourselves as Georgians so and this was kind of yeah dilemma so we agree that we are

[00:35:07] Georgians but we also understand physicists understand that there is also some positive things being

[00:35:14] this large country and if this large country will be reorganized maybe this will be good and also

[00:35:21] yeah we are scientists and we are trying to analyze things and when this nation movement starts of

[00:35:28] course we can support by heart they say okay Georgia is independent is Georgia not bad but they

[00:35:33] were speaking they were so populist and they have so so silly ideas that it was very difficult to

[00:35:40] accept this for nationalism yes for instance in my feelings it was my opinion was and I do

[00:35:50] remember it quite perfectly following that this stupid Yeltsin he is pushing so much to come to

[00:35:58] power he will destroy this country this I understood that Yeltsin and this seems to be all right

[00:36:06] the source of this solution was Yeltsin essentially he wanted to be a hydrophrasher and they made

[00:36:12] the decisions but here me and I understand there is also a conference this first motion for

[00:36:19] independent was so much under the nationalistic feelings which was for us a new rule uncommon

[00:36:27] not acceptable so we were we were slightly careful of distantated from it so but then when I

[00:36:34] finally it happened and when I then started to think about this of course I accept all but I

[00:36:40] cannot say that at the first moment I was in favor of this no I was not ready and had no

[00:36:46] proper understanding of processes yeah and listening this nationalistic guys as populistic talks

[00:36:54] we are also they were just not realistic and of course Georgia contributed to the here of

[00:37:01] Soviet Union but as George said this Soviet Union decayed from the top from the top yeah because

[00:37:07] yeah you of course trying to but it was without an in strong country it was not possible that

[00:37:13] this nationalist can bring down such a big country but they put one one brick from Soviet Union but

[00:37:20] of course they did not destroy it this was destroyed from our understanding this was destroyed

[00:37:26] from the top but now I think it's I would not like to go back because no no no no that so simply

[00:37:34] we were not ready as that's okay yeah and we were occupied by something which was different

[00:37:40] we were occupied by science by collaboration by colleagues so look there was a two problems

[00:37:46] first is that communism is bad or communist power is bad and there was no doubt everybody

[00:37:53] agree in Moscow it here but whether it should be disappear and with this sort is a different question

[00:38:00] so then it transferred into the case that not communist but Russian psychopaths this was

[00:38:05] a different for accept and it's still a problem essentially in many countries and we observe this

[00:38:10] so there's a nationalistic feelings or ideas overcome anti-communist feelings so that was a

[00:38:18] complicate problem so me personally was more orientated okay on creation of society with less

[00:38:26] communist power or some democratic country but not thinking about the segregation of this in

[00:38:33] ethnic groups and so on that's was my my opinion well thank you it was wrong a scientist and I have

[00:38:40] to admit that it was finally wrong so what it reached sense so it seems to it doesn't work so it's

[00:38:46] not based on the reality so this nationalistic leader so this experienced politicians understood

[00:38:54] much better realities than we but it was a mistake but not all the serious one so you mentioned

[00:39:00] a little bit about what happened to the magnet on the hill yes when everything kind of crumbles

[00:39:06] do you start worrying about what's going to happen to all this equipment in the institute as people

[00:39:11] start trying to figure out how they're going to survive and there's this crumble of kind of society

[00:39:15] do you worry about the reactor in the institute and all this valuable scientific equipment that

[00:39:22] you have and how to deal with it with reactor is typical institutes people the first of all what

[00:39:28] disappear was the security of the institute the reactor so there was a police and police was

[00:39:36] absent there was nobody for looking to the entrance to the reactor so how it was sold

[00:39:43] of the colleagues working on the institute were became bodyguards of the institute and the reactor

[00:39:50] also to save when it took a lot of time to convince government to then recreate this police

[00:39:57] to send somebody to take responsibility because there was nobody thinking about what they have

[00:40:03] so how long did it take for you to convince the government I mean there was no government essentially

[00:40:08] but how long did they were fighting with each other they had no time to think about the war in Georgia it was

[00:40:14] it was a civil war here so how long did the scientists have to guard the reactor

[00:40:18] no it was until Rani was taken right it was years it's around one year essentially then it was

[00:40:28] that the so the situation was that they were getting a salary already as a

[00:40:33] addition for additional office from the institute because there was no say became of people who were

[00:40:39] sleeping there essentially staying the whole day so there was no war commode the reactor was

[00:40:45] shot it down that was a building but one has to be sure that nobody will come inside and will

[00:40:51] will not do anything and so the civil war in Georgia essentially continued almost two years

[00:40:59] all to guess and before it and in some way in 94 so look from 92 to 94

[00:41:09] it was a three years of complete collapse the only thing which was used I do remember at my institute also

[00:41:18] the administration printed big signs of this radiation damage and put on all doors so that

[00:41:25] there's people on the stores that there is radiation not to end did the fighting come anywhere near

[00:41:31] the institute or the reactor sorry did the fighting for the you know you said there was a civil war

[00:41:38] did the fighting or the no it was not fighting fighting somewhere else it wasn't fighting it was just like

[00:41:44] it was a political fight it was a say it is a raw a pay list there's nothing for us though but

[00:41:50] there were there were a lot of small groups of some gangsters of robbers and so on oh I'm sorry

[00:41:59] I don't know much about your history no the question the fight was somewhere in the West Georgia

[00:42:06] far from here partly was in the city but the society was destroyed so you could imagine that small

[00:42:13] boys from the some nearest village could organize and come inside to steal something nothing else

[00:42:20] but there one of the incomes for population was that they were collecting the metals and taking

[00:42:28] them to some centers where they were weighted and they were paid for this metals with the case

[00:42:34] of reactor white was all that is taken and sold and so on was flowing because there was no support

[00:42:41] from the state to save this building this safety of this installation and then when the

[00:42:50] administration of the institute became tired from this fight with this government it was 95

[00:42:57] so it's four years later so when they only convince them to take these routes of existing

[00:43:05] nuclear material that 12 years ago for a few to take out because did the Georgians take it

[00:43:16] out themselves or did you have contacts that would come in and help you take it out but it was sold

[00:43:21] to Uzbekistan via Moscow okay so the Moscow came there was okay it was a tricky case Moscow had to

[00:43:30] take it oh because it was their reactor yeah it's their reactor the big following agreements they

[00:43:36] had to take all what this had to be done but there was a better a relation or political relations they

[00:43:43] did not want to use these they asked a big money for these and this was a question they wanted

[00:43:49] you to pay them to remove it yes yes yes yes but it's theirs no no okay yesterday there was a talk

[00:43:56] about this there is a there is a one special political issue please please have in to mind that

[00:44:03] this apraze you know the stereotype part of Georgia which is still under the Russian occupation

[00:44:09] the train line is passing through apraze and it is closed after today it is closed it doesn't work

[00:44:18] okay what they are asking opens this line so let us recognize the occupation of apraze open the

[00:44:25] train line we will come and take but without this we will not come because another train line was

[00:44:32] coming from through Azerbaijan it's also for so there was a big big amount of politics so finally they

[00:44:40] sold all they managed to find the similar reactor in Uzbekistan who needed this through

[00:44:49] so and they took it from airplane well these people from Uzbekistan so it's a sad story do you have

[00:44:58] anything you'd like people to know that we haven't discussed yet we have a hope that still

[00:45:05] science will remain here in Georgia nothing else hope hope is present how to do this we don't know

[00:45:12] we think a lot we discuss a lot we we do not have a clear solution we have a main problem it says

[00:45:19] that it's very difficult to communicate with government that's very difficult to find the

[00:45:25] people in government who can understand you my opinion is that they have an orthogonal brain so

[00:45:33] they think a different way we think a different way and it was all the time so it's not the

[00:45:39] exclusion but in a good times this what the guys who we call big bosses were a good translators

[00:45:49] of language out from our language to government language so there were guys to whom the

[00:45:55] the leaders were listening and trying to understand what is now a problem in Georgia

[00:46:03] unfortunately the deficit of this type of people who have a chance to

[00:46:09] convince government in solutions which are maybe even not clear for governments that it has to

[00:46:16] be done but they do not trust everybody therefore they don't give any solution for science

[00:46:22] there is also my understanding generation problem because scientists are still in in Georgia most

[00:46:29] of scientists are like experienced old guys and now in government they are mostly young people

[00:46:37] and they don't have so respect to science in sovitune times this government they have some respect

[00:46:43] to science and these are probably the wrong and badly they don't have any respect to scientists

[00:46:49] and what we cannot in principle the head for Americans was very important during this strong periods

[00:46:56] because many people disappeared they find other jobs as I say some found jobs in the west but

[00:47:03] some also were getting these grunts from Soros Foundation and Soros Foundation played in principle

[00:47:09] very important roles they played a very good role for very bad years from 95 or 96 to 99

[00:47:18] 2000 Soros Foundation was supporting financially people here what is the Soros Foundation

[00:47:24] I don't know who is the Soros Foundation George Soros you know who is him he is the main enemy of Soros

[00:47:34] George Soros Soros or Soros she is from Hungary he's a billionaire from United States who made his

[00:47:40] fortune as we know he is the next door he's office yeah yeah and he has idea of open society

[00:47:50] the society should be open and when soros vets union started to

[00:47:53] westernization or soros vets union and to open society and he made foundations in

[00:48:01] this republics and this was called George Soros Open Society Foundation and they paid a lot

[00:48:08] of money to scientists to NGOs to these things and George Soros is still everybody knows in

[00:48:15] Georgia who is George Soros yes George Soros at some period he was paying money for

[00:48:30] for the ideas and many people said oh he was to steal our ideas and he's buying our good

[00:48:37] things and there's a lot of opinions about him good and bad yes this trust and he's a western

[00:48:45] spy yes that he's a western spy at some moment he decided to he closed of course his foundation

[00:48:50] in Russia after yeah it's clear the trusser is not not any more interested in he closed

[00:48:56] in foundation in many many countries but in Georgia we still have it's just about here next door

[00:49:03] but from the next day to go also closed yeah because yes George Soros is not any more

[00:49:10] will pay for foundation foundation will stay but they have to find their own

[00:49:15] no no finances sources of financing but last year's they were giving money to the NGOs which we

[00:49:22] are working on open society on westernization democracy and they are not giving any more money

[00:49:28] to science at this period when it was tough period for scientists this money it was not a 500

[00:49:35] dollars per per for the whole maybe it was not a big money but for people at that time it was

[00:49:41] that the maintain survive 500 per year not for months oh per year yeah but it's better than nothing

[00:49:48] yes it's much better than that but it was enough for leave one hour one year

[00:49:52] it was very cheaper at the time everything so when I first came came from Switzerland from small

[00:49:58] conference where I got a money I have a 200 dollars in my pocket and I told my wife okay we are

[00:50:04] saved for one year I have 200 dollars oh wow in the 90s yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

[00:50:11] why 92 wow sir and money was also it was possible to leave one year if you were spending

[00:50:17] one month it's so it was a it was a 500 dollars was the money for one year it was a calculate

[00:50:23] I was I remember it was for example to rent a apartment with one room it was 10 or 20 dollars in

[00:50:31] this in this range yeah it was a different scale because then then big it was absolutely transition

[00:50:38] time was can I tell you one story before we finish yes of course I love it to understand the way

[00:50:44] how the life was organized here there was a president of Soviet Academy of Science

[00:50:50] Waviloff was his name was a Cherenkov and Waviloff radiation you know this famous experiment so

[00:50:58] and I read his diary it was published and he was very accurately putting in this diary every day

[00:51:06] meetings well it's a very interesting day it is somewhere 5th or 6th of January 1952

[00:51:14] there are only few words what I believe Stalin so I had visited Stalin so Stalin ordered him to

[00:51:22] meet point we discuss science point ministers and people around him asked telling that scientists

[00:51:35] in academy are not doing anything point it was rather difficult to convince him that it is not so

[00:51:45] point but he managed to convince me because many people are doing when you have scientists

[00:51:51] are sitting and writing for a former president so let's let's let somebody is coming to government and

[00:51:58] say that they have nothing to they're not doing anything

[00:52:04] thank you for listening and thank you to the Stanley Center and the Georgian scientists please

[00:52:09] listen to the previous episode for more stories visit our website minuclearlife.com for links

[00:52:16] mentioned in our episode our email address and information on how to access bonus material

[00:52:22] until next time I'm Shelley Lesher and this has been minuclearlife